SNIPERACE
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Post by SNIPERACE on Nov 20, 2006 23:26:38 GMT 7
got this from another forum, hope it helps explain some points in our hobby Cylinder volume - if the cylinder does not have the internal volume to hold enough air to propel a BB down a certain barrel length, the BB will slow down in the barrel due to not longer being accelerated by a force behind it (air pressure). Conversely, if it has more internal volume than the inner barrel, the BB will not reach full velocity before exiting the barrel because the initial rush of air is what propels the BB, not the full volume being expelled from the cylinder by the piston racing forward. An example would be Obsidian’s G3SAS: It has a very short inner barrel with a type0 cylinder if I recall correctly, so the BB is not reaching the full acceleration before exiting the barrel, so thus he installed a stronger spring to compensate. In other words, he is using a spring that is capable of more energy with parts that stunt that capability, thus allowing that particular gun to be legal. A different approach would be to use the appropriate cylinder for that short of a inner barrel length, which would allow that gun to reach about the same muzzle velocity with a weaker spring, thus saving some wear and tear on other mechbox internals. In those two scenarios, the gun has the same muzzle energy, but went two different routes to get there, with one being optimized for that barrel length and the other using brute force. Thus, this is why various cylinder types (positioning of holes in the cylinder) are matched with certain barrel lengths, because you want as much air moving as fast as you can get it to be what is expelled through the nozzle. When an AEG fires, it is expelling a set amount of air. Since the air from the cylinder is at the same pressure as the atmosphere, the BB is only accelerated by the volume of air behind it. This differs from a gas gun, in which a certain amount of gas is expelled or valve simply opened, which allows the propellant gas to expand rapidly and try to equalize with the atmosphere. In that case, the gas will actually cause the BB to gain velocity in the barrel as the gas increases speed in order to escape the barrel to equalize with the atmosphere. Now in both cases, BB weight can cause various muzzle velocities without changing the spring. This is because a higher-powered gun is forcing air out that much faster. Thus, a light BB might be expelled very quickly by that initial burst and not reach the energy that the gun is actually capable of......in other words, if a heavier BB is used in that same gun, you can actually see a muzzle energy increase because the BB is heavy enough to not be shot forward by that initial burst. This means the full volume of air is behind it moving quickly, and it reaches full acceleration as it exits the barrel. A BB that reaches full acceleration earlier in the barrel will actually slow down as there is no force behind it anymore, so it is traveling on inertia alone and frictional forces, due to air and also the walls of the barrel, act to slow it down. This is relevant because with high-powered sniper rifles, testing is done with a .2g BB. This is faulty because the gun is tuned to shoot with a heavier BB, like .34g or greater, let's say. Thus, that lighter BB may exit the barrel before the full energy potential is reached. For instance, there have been cases where somebody will chrono at 490fps with a .2g BB which equates to 2.2J of energy. Then, they chrono with a .36g BB at 420fps which equates to 2.9J. Same gun, very different muzzle energy because of what I outlined above. That is where muzzle energy comes into play and is a better indicator of a gun's energy capability than pure velocity. You can see how that could come into play at the chrono pit, and a player innocently and unknowingly is wielding a gun that is shooting at higher muzzle energy than expected. This is usually only seen in higher-powered guns, but can be seen in our regular AEGs as well to a smaller degree. For example, let's say you have a gun chrono at 400fps with .2g BB, which equates to 1.48J. I have seen multiple common instances where that same gun will then chrono at 360-370fps with .25g BB, which equates to 1.49-1.58J. See how the energy rise was slight, although the gun legally shot 400fps with .2g BB? Thus, the relationship is not linear, but is dependant on parts in your gun, including the nozzle, tightbore barrel, piston head, cylinder, cylinder head and inner barrel length. Furthermore, if those parts aren’t sealing well, that throws a bit more variance into the mix. However, due to experiences with various guns, you can get a feel for where a gun should lie in the muzzle velocity range based on what BB is being used. So your statement about expecting a gun to shoot anywhere from 25-50fps higher with a .2g BB versus a .25g BB, as a loose general number, is accurate, although in my general experience I would typically say 30-40fps is a more likely number. I threw out 25-50fps earlier to incorporate more variables. The same discussion mentioned above for sniper rifles and regular AEGs also applies to support weapons. For example, one of my RPKs chrono'd at 442-447fps consistently at the last Roanoke op with .2g BB, and prior to going to that op, I had checked it at home with .25g BB to be anywhere from 401-411fps. The .2g BB energy works out to 1.79-1.87J, whereas the .25g BB works out to 1.85-1.94J, so you see how the same gun can produce slight muzzle energy differences just because of the BB. This ALSO is further complicated by the brand of BBs you use. Some brands are nominally smaller than other brands. For example, I have some KSC .25g BBs that a handful measured in the 5.92-5.96mm diameter range. Compare that to some AE .25g BBs that I measured that fell in at 5.94-5.97mm range. The AE had a smaller tolerance range and a slightly larger diameter, making them more consistent and accurate. This is more apparent in gas guns, in which the hopup systems differ than that of the AEGs, and I am still learning about that having picked up types of those guns in the past couple months. Ok, I think the only thing I haven't covered is bore-up cylinders.......they have a slightly larger internal diameter for the purpose of being used with longer inner barrels with higher-powered springs. You would not use a bore-up in a short inner barrel gun for the reasons outlined earlier…..the BB would exit the barrel before full acceleration is achieved. I personally am not a big fan of them since they require a matching piston head, and those are not readily available to my knowledge, unless you buy the entire kit again. Therefore, I have less experience with these, but the same basics apply. The thought is that if you have a larger air volume in the cylinder as the source, along with a long inner barrel, that you can achieve greater muzzle velocity since you are allowing the BB to accelerate longer with a larger pressure behind it. Basically overall, you would pick what inner barrel length you are seeking first, and then pick a cylinder type to match it.
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SNIPERACE
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Post by SNIPERACE on Nov 20, 2006 23:36:28 GMT 7
here's another one Long barrels need Boreup Kits: Since wolv didnt run over bore up cylinders.... bore up cylinders have a thinner cylinder wall as well as a larger bore on the cylinder head nozzle. Due to this larger bore the nozzle must be a larger bore. This basically gets you a minimal increase in volume throughout the whole system. It has the downside of each part being unique and non replaceable for the most part. Going to wolv's explanation I have seen several boreup kits that resulted in a drop of BB velocity. Not what someone wants after spending 50 to 100 bucks on an upgrade. This is due to their being a larger volume of air that the same sized spring is trying to push. So if your gun was shooting 400 with and you put in the boreup kit because you bought into the marketing hype you would probably end up shooting around 385 after. In my opinion they are a waste of money. To prove this I built a g36 up with a RAS and a 650 mm PSG barrel....longest barrel available on the market. I have an M120 and type 0 cylinder installed and the gun shoots consistantly 400 to 405. You need a long barrel for range/fps/whatever. Barrels give you accuracy and can contribute to range due to the volume that they possess. I constantly hear about everyone wanting to make their barrel longer to get better range or more FPS. As you have seen it is a science. You need to have a barrel that matches the volume of air that your cylinder is pushing out. Your velocity is coming from the compression of the air from your spring. As wolv said if your barrel contains less volume than your cylinder you are wasting some of that compression your spring generates. My G3SAS has one of the shortest barrels out there. It actually has the stock cylinder in it which has a hole in it. With an M120 the gun will only shoot around 350fps. This is because the gun has half the barrel/cylinder volume of an SR16 for example. To compensate for this I put an M130 into the gun. This has the effect of compressing the air faster to generate more pressure. This gets the bb up to speed before it leaves the barrel. This results in it shooting 400 fps. Now lets look at the flip side....Longer barrels. In my opinion the G3 has the perfect length barrel. I have g3 barrels in my P90, SR47, the other G36 and a couple other guns. When you pull the trigger and the piston slams forward compressing that air you get a very violent turbulent reaction. All of this compressed air blasts out and hits the bb pushing it past the hopup which starts it spinning. Some distance down the barrel after that the bb is going to be moving at its terminal velocity. The advantage of a longer barrel or a tightbore barrel is that it holds the BB in that trajectory for a longer time. Basically it removes some of the erratic behavior of the bb. To test that compare a g3 to a Mp5k. The K will spray BBs everywhere wheres the G3 puts out a beam of bbs. From what I have seen the single greatest effect on the FPS of your gun is the level of your technical expertise. You can take the best parts in the world, slap them together and still have a gun shooting stock velocities. You can also take a new M120 and get a gun shooting consistantly 410 to 420.
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SNIPERACE
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Post by SNIPERACE on Nov 20, 2006 23:46:46 GMT 7
What's better, a long barrel or a short one? For the most part a longer barrel works better than a shorter one. Why? Well aside from the obvious explanation that a longer barrel will be more accurate many people don't realize it'll also give you more power and velocity. When the air is compressed in the cylinder it creates pressure which leads to force. Pressure, P, is the force acted on an object, F, per unit area, a.
P = F / a
Force equals mass times acceleration, F = MA. The mass of the BB doesn't change as it travels, so all of the force goes towards acceleration. All objects move in a constant speed (even if that speed is zero) in a single direction unless force is exerted on the object. When force is exerted the speed or velocity will change, meaning there is acceleration. Acceleration is the change in velocity over time. If a car goes 30mph on the street and speeds up to 35mph in 5 seconds, then 40mph in 10 seconds, it is accelerating by 1mph per second. When acceleration stops, that does not mean the object stops moving. In the case of the car, it remains at the final constant speed of 40mph.
So pressure results in the acceleration of an object. This acceleration is proportional to the cross sectional area of the object, and inversely proportional to the mass of the object.
P = MA / a
Ok what's that have to do with barrel length? The more time a force is exerted on an object the longer it will be accelerated, and the more it accelerates the faster it will go in the end. Obviously a BB will take longer to travel down a long barrel than a short one, thus it will have air pressure exerted on the BB for a longer amount of time and that means more time to accelerate. This is why you will get more velocity from a long barrel than a short one. Example: a SP110 spring in a M4A1 will give a velocity near 390fps (depending on what other parts are installed), but that same spring in a MP5K will only give 300fps.
HOWEVER, electric powered airsoft guns get their pressure and force only from the air being compressed in the cylinder. It is a specific volume of air that once compressed will want to return to its original volume. Therefore, if the volume of the barrel is larger than the volume of the cylinder than you will get a suction effect in the barrel. Let's say your piston and cylinder will push out 40 cubic centimeters of air and your barrel volume is 60 cubic centimeters. Your piston only has enough air to push the BB two-thirds way down the barrel. Two-thirds way down your BB will reach its maximum velocity and will travel on inertia alone. But in that last third the BB will act like a piston in reverse as it goes down the barrel and cause suction behind it. This suction will want to pull the BB back to its optimal position, two-thirds way down the barrel. Fortunately the BB will have enough inertia to still shoot out, however it will have a lower than optimal velocity because of the suction caused in the barrel will pull it back. In this respect a barrel that is too long will not be good. As an example the HammerMods.Com crew and I experimented with putting a PSG-1 barrel in a M16A2. The A2 was upgraded to shoot 400fps with the A2 length barrel. But with the PSG-1 barrel it shot only slightly over 320fps. Obviously the PSG-1 barrel was too long for the A2 piston and cylinder. Just as a side note the M16A2 has a full, non-ported cylinder, meaning it pushes out the maximum amount of air for version 2 mechboxes.
What does that last statement mean? The cylinders in many of the AEG's have holes in them. This is to port out air. Why do you want air ported out? Well, the concept of force being exerted for a longer time leading to more acceleration is at work here, too. The spring in the mechbox exerts force on the piston making it accelerate. This means that the piston is moving slow in the beginning of the piston stroke and fast at the end. Let's say the barrel has a volume of 20 cubic centimeters. If the cylinder contains 40 cubic centimeters of air you only need to use half of the air inside. To get the optimum performance you want the fastest moving portion of the air, the second half (remember, the air accelerated at the end of the stroke will be moving faster). The first half of the air being compressed is unnecessary because it is moving too slow and will push out the BB before the faster portion of air will even touch the BB. So to get rid of the first half a hole is made in the cylinder to let the air out before it is compressed.
The cylinders in many of the AEG's have holes in them. My friend and customer experienced this problem when his friend installed an AK-47 full tune up kit in his AK-47B Spetsnaz. This included an AK-47 bore-up cylinder and piston head. He gained a substantial increase in velocity but when he finally checked it on a chronograph it showed lower than expected readings. He told me about what was done to his gun and I advised him to switch his bore-up cylinder to a ported MP5 standard bore cylinder (with matching heads and nozzle). He took my advice and we switched the parts out. This change alone resulted in a 20-25fps increase without changing the spring.
So if you want the most velocity for your parts you should use a long barrel. However, if you do not have a cylinder that matches your barrel you will be losing velocity. So before you put a AK-47 barrel on your MP5, or a SG-1 bore-up cylinder in your G3 SAS, stop and think about what you need to do and how it will affect your performance.
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SNIPERACE
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Post by SNIPERACE on Nov 20, 2006 23:58:12 GMT 7
Bore up and Silent Piston Head's SUCK!
I'm not saying that the idea of larger bore being beneficial is wrong, but the shapes of the piston heads are all wrong. The convex head leads to turbulence and lower fluid flow rates. This is why:
Friction is everywhere. Even air has friction. Friction leads to deceleration in moving objects. As air moves down a tube the air molecules have friction against the sides of the tube. This slows the air near the walls of the tube while the air in the center moves faster. This in itself results in a convex flow of air as it travels down a tube.
This causes turbulence because air molecules will feel faster flow near the center of the tube and slower flow on the outer perimeter. When you have an object moving at a faster speed on one side than the other you will experience rotation. This is like how tanks steer, by moving one track faster than the other the tank turns. And when objects spin they want to change their trajectory. Imagine your gun with too much hop-up. The bb's are spinning too fast and end up curving rather than shooting straight. This is exactly what happens to the air molecules; they curve out towards the walls of the tube instead of moving straight down the tube.
The amount of curve in the convex shape of the airflow determines the amount of turbulence. This is because the difference in airflow velocities on opposite sides of the air molecules is greater. The greater difference causes more spin. Using a convex piston head increases this curve and causes more turbulence. This results in inefficient airflow.
Why do they make convex piston heads? Well because tapered cylinder heads help reduce turbulence and [dumb] people feel believe that the curved piston head will help use all of the air in the cylinder instead of leaving a small portion of unused air in the cylinder head. If [dumb] people don't believe what I explained about turbulent flow then maybe they'll believe that you'll have more air volume with a flat piston head (which you do but that is unusable tidal air volume that won't do anything). But who knows, people believe anything they read on the internet no matter how dumb it may be.
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Mr.S
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Post by Mr.S on Nov 21, 2006 3:55:23 GMT 7
Teka nga, makapag react muna ako ng konti. Tutal naman matagaltagal na akong hindi ng p-post dito sa site natin ;D ;D ;D I do not know if all of the posts where written by one person or by different authors but I find flaws and inconsistencies in the the arguments laid, particularlly with regard to Bore Up Kits being just a "waste of money" or "sucking". I say this not because I'am "fan" of bore up kits (though I own a Systema MP5 Bore Up kit, a CA AUG Bore Up kit and have on loan for "evaluation purposes" , from sir Sniperace, a Guarder AK Bore Up kit) but because I have spent a lot of time and resources researching Bore Up Kits and found them, inspite of their flaws (particularlly the cheap, good for nothing piston heads that break like Skyflakes Crakers when used on SP140 and above springs, which, fortunately is very easy to fix hehehe), to be the only sensible choice when using super hard springs such as SP160s and up (I even use them on SP150- but for a different purpose) if the highest possible performance and relative durability and reliability of an AEG is of primary concern. I mentioned inconsistencies and flaws with the arguments against bore up kits, here are a few examples: 1. All testing were done with low to moderate power springs (M120-130). The author/authors of the articles or posts would have quickly found out that their testing methodology was flawed if they had done even a little research about the intended application for Bore Up kits. Bore Up kits were designed to maximize the potential, muzzle velocity wise, of super high end springs (SP160s and up).As far as increasing performance is concerned, according to most of the respected gunsmiths out there and based on my personal experience, if you use a bore up kit with an SP/M150 or less spring - there will be minimal to zero performance gain, FPS wise. Notice that a Bore Up Kit is only recomended for SP/M160 and up, it is only an option and not a necessity for SP/M150-130 and that its not even recomended for 120 and below. (image courtesy of 21stcenturyairsoft.com)I've proven this numerous times with my own guns and the guns of others. A good example was the test I did with my TM AUG and a settled (3 month old) SP150. Before I switched to the CA Bore Up Kit (from a Magic Box double O-ring, Best Gun Cylinder Head, Area 1000 teflon coated cylinder and Sytema air seal nozzle setup) my chrono (Prochrono) was 530 FPS on .20 ICS bbs. I swapped the CA Bore Up kit and chronoed it- lo and behold 530 FPS still! No performance gain at all. Take note that the actual before and after test were done on the same day, on the exact same chrono and gun, so there is no chance for other variables to affect the results. I did the another test on the same gun and CA Bore Up kit (sans the cheap, good for nothing stock bore up piston head- more on this later) but this time with a JOMYN Precompress 155 spring (rated at 570-580 FPS by its vendors). It chronoed 600-614 FPS on .20 BBs- which is considerably higher than the 570-580 EMV (Expected Muzzle Velocity). Why the significant performance boost? Its due to the fact that the 155 spring is actually closer to an SP160 in strenght than an SP150 (bore up kits will only boost performance with a 160 spring and up). I can't imagine why these people wonder about the sub standard performance their bore up kits gave them considering they totally disregarded the design application of the said kits by using springs (M120 and M130) that are way too weak to take advantage of the Bore Up kits in the first place. It seems that only first guy was not "dumb" enough bto to know this: "bore-up cylinders.......they have a slightly larger internal diameter for the purpose of being used with longer inner barrels with higher-powered springs"2. In trying to prove the "uselesness" of bore up kits, one of the authors actually proved, beyond reasonable doubt, one of its benefits. "In my opinion they (Bore Up Kits) are a waste of money. To prove this I built a g36 up with a RAS and a 650 mm PSG barrel....longest barrel available on the market. I have an M120 and type 0 cylinder installed and the gun shoots consistantly 400 to 405."Notice that even with a 650mm PSG-1 barrel, which is BTW the longest AEG barrel readily available, the SP120 + the Bore Up Kit was still able to achieve an impressive 400-405 FPS. This is in fact very good muzzle velocity for an SP/M120 type spring (see image below). According to our guide, the SP/M120 spring has an average EMV of only 392.4 FPSWhat happened when a similarly configured AEG was fitted with the same PSG-1 barrel length but with the Bore Up Kit removed from the equation? "As an example the HammerMods.Com crew and I experimented with putting a PSG-1 barrel in a M16A2. The A2 was upgraded to shoot 400fps with the A2 length barrel. But with the PSG-1 barrel it shot only slightly over 320fps. Obviously the PSG-1 barrel was too long for the A2 piston and cylinder. Just as a side note the M16A2 has a full, non-ported cylinder, meaning it pushes out the maximum amount of air for version 2 mechboxes."An instant 80 FPS drop! To sumarize: SP/M120 + 650 mm PSG-1 barrel + Bore Up Kit = 400-405 FPS SP/M120 + 650 mm PSG-1 barrel = 320 FPS
It is obvious that when one wishes to use an extremely long barrel (600-650 mm) a bore up kit is a necessity. The standard Type 0 or Closed Type Cylinder has a volume of 27.1 cc while a Type 0 Bore up has 29.4 cc. The "minimal increase in volume" of 2.3 cc is enough to normlize the EMV of an AEG with an extremely long barrel in respect to its spring weight/type. 3. The shape of the piston head was the result of a purpose concious design and not a "dumb" move on the part of the engineers!"Dumb" design?Those who are into airsoft gunsmithing know that the Bore Up Cylinder Head and Piston Head "borrow" the technology found in so called "Silent Piston Head" sets. In fact they look so much alike that one who can easily mstake one for another. Once while I was buying at a well known hobby shop the salesman told me that the silent piston head he had was a bore up piston head.I siad it was not but he kept on isisting so I asked him to try it on one of the bore up cylinders he had lying around and sure enough maluwag siya! As I told him it turned out to be a silent piston head. In fairness to him its a common mistake. The Sytema Silent Head kitThe Silent Head system was primarily designed to decrease noise (because of the rubber dampers on the piston head and the cylinder head), increase ROF (mainly due to its lightweight) and absorb or dissipate a significant amount of impact energy caused by the spring (which is the main cause of cracked gearboxes). To achieve these, engineers had to make a trade off: less noise, higher ROF and more impact protection but at the cost of a little FPS drop. How little? According to this review www.airsoftmechanics.com/reviews.php?aid=17&page=4, an average of 5% muzzle velocity loss. This is the same reason why the bore Up Piston Head and was designed in a similar fashion. 1. Relatively silent operation even with hard pounding springs (my Systema bore up kit equiped TM MP5 has been complimented numerous times for being so quiet considering MP5s are one of the loudest AEGs) 2. Faster ROF. I think dito medyo nagkamali ang mga designer ng Bore Up Piston Heads. They made the piston heads so light na bumilis nga ROF pero mabilis din siyang masira! They say that a picture is worth a thousand words: My Systema Bore Up Piston Head (MP5 kit) after 3 months on an SP140 My CA Bore Up Piston Head (STEYR AUG kit) after 2 weeks on an SP150As you can see the stock piston heads break easily but I found a quick and easy solution: Custom T6 Aluminum Bore Up Piston head. Tested up to SP170- no problems!
3. Impact Absorpton. When using super hard springs (SP150 and up) you will need to make sure the gearbox will be able to take the pounding. Bore up kits help tremendously in this area. I know someone who used an SP170 on a CA V2 gearbox for about 2 months- it miracurously survived thanks in part to the Bore Up Kit's impact cushioning effect! The thick rubber padding on the the Bore Up Cylinder head and the rubber bumper/damper on the piston head absorbs a considerable amount of force caused by the impact of the piston head to the cylinder head. No metal to metal contact during opperation = less stress on the gearbox caused by shock generated by a metal piston hitting a metal cylinder head. I can't see anything that "sucks" or is "dumb" about the design of the Bore Up Piston heads
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SNIPERACE
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Post by SNIPERACE on Nov 21, 2006 18:27:31 GMT 7
sir i think the writer of that thread (think i got it from the states or canada) didn't mean anything. (they simply are just too blatant with words. they write without thinking). he was just explaining the theories in air physics. i am currently using one of your bore up piston heads and it works fine. your reaction was a surprise to me hehehe.
it seems you took those spring performance chart seriously. but did you noticed why they don't use bore up cylinder for lower springs? because they were not designed for full compression at slow speed springs, you actually need a lot of speed for it to have a good compression.
IMHO, anything thats mechanical will eventually break no matter what spring we use. its bound to happen that one or more parts will give way due to constant stress generated by the moving parts.
BTW nice of you to post again matagal tagal ka na nga di nagpo-post dito satin hehehe.
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Mr.S
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Post by Mr.S on Nov 21, 2006 21:51:02 GMT 7
Tanggal nga antok ko nung nabasa ko eh! hehehe
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SNIPERACE
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Post by SNIPERACE on Nov 21, 2006 23:35:03 GMT 7
masyado ka na kasi siguro busy sir kaya parati ka antok hehehe.
BTW may naisip ka na sa project B?
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Mr.S
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Post by Mr.S on Nov 23, 2006 8:13:20 GMT 7
Next week pwede na natin simulan. Up to know I still can't decide if we will go with the individual barrel config (similar to a gattling gun but will obviously not rotate and will fire all barrels (12?) one time) a single large shell and with multiple chambers to act as integrated barrels (sort of like a giant Deepfire BB shower). One thing is certain we must be able to devise a hop system for each barrel/chamber in order to achieve decent range and trajectory. Sheer FPS alone will not propel the projectiles far enough to be of any value in skirmishing. Speaking of FPS I think we can achieve a termianl (at muzzle end) velocity in excess of 500 FPS on .20s sir because we are not limited to the size of the gas chamber due to the fact na "Ba****ka" nga ang configuartion natin as oppossed to being constrained to the puny dimensions of our AEG guns.
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SNIPERACE
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Post by SNIPERACE on Nov 23, 2006 8:37:03 GMT 7
hehe ok sir
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